Interview with Knowledge’s Anthony Doyley (Part 1)
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Black News 
Interview with Knowledge’s Anthony Doyley (Part 1)
Where: Unknown
When: 2003
Reporter: Peter I
Photos: Nicolas Maslowski (Anthony Doyley), Beth Lesser (Delroy Wilson), Paul Scott (Mikey Knowledge), Courtesy of the respective record companies (pics/labels/sleeves)
Copyright: 2024 – Peter I
KNOWLEDGE: THE TRENCH TOWN EXPERIENCE (THE INTERVIEW PART 1)
Without even being widely rated in their home country of Jamaica, the Trench Town quintet Knowledge achieved something that most reggae vocal groups only dreamed about in the late seventies period and very few ever got: a major contract. But through the aid of Tapper Zukie – their producer and mentor – they got it. A&M in America made sure that the hype was there and the group got its fair share of decent promotion. But as is the case when a reggae act gets the major signing the label usually causes the album to be dumped in mainstream wasteland and this was not different for Knowledge at the height of Bob Marley’s popularity in 1978.
A group led by Anthony Doyley (now resident in the UK), Knowledge was heavily lyrical messengers and the fruit of its time, roots music in its most raw and potent form that lost momentum in the early eighties. Their story is that of a musical rollercoaster, and a violent one it is too. This extensive interview reveals even the beginning of Doyley’s career when, as a youth, he recorded a track for producer Lee Perry that was thought to be lost, never released. It turned out to be the opposite. More than thirty years passed before he got to realise that Perry had this particular debut recording pressed in England, and as we get a smaller world by each day the “realization” happened during this conversation. Thanks to Anthony Doyley, Romain Germa, Nic Maslowski, Penny Reel, Olli, Teacher & Mr. T, Lee Jaffe, Julian Schmidt, Dave Hendley, Steve Barrow, Michael Turner, Bob Schoenfeld, and Michael De Koningh.
How did you grow up, and what was Trench Town like at that time in the fifties and sixties?
Well, the first thing is that Trench Town is what is called – or described by Bunny Wailer to some journalists years ago, as “Hollywood”. Because…
Not just in terms of entertainment?
Not just entertainment alone – the lifestyle. Because there were so many different talents that was amalgamated in Trench Town. In other words some of the best cricketers came from Trench Town. Some of the best boxers – Jamaica’s best boxers, came from Trench Town. Cyclists as well. We had good footballers, we had people that was like senators in the House of Parliament. We had people who were… became mayors, and we had like people who had the first, youngest degree of Ph. D that ever came out of Jamaica, with a person from Trench Town. So Trench Town had all that. Then on the other side… on the negative side you had the crooks, you had the bankrobbers, the hole in the wall, the hole in the roof, the pickpockets… You understand me?
Yes.
So it was that kind of self ingredients, yeah. But what really stood out most of all was rasta. Because Trench Town was really home for what you’d call… the early rastas.
The Nyabinghi?
Yeah, before them too, you know wha’ I mean? Because you had people who were like… Have you heard of Leonard Howell?
Sure. Foundational, in the 1930’s.
Yeah, 1930’s, forties. And then you had people like Hibbert who was his close aid, and all of those people like Sam Brown, Mortimer Planno, all those people were people who lived in Trench Town. So you had that strong rasta community when I was growing up. And then there was the Christian side of it now where… I’ve never seen so much churches anywhere in Jamaica like in Trench Town, y’know what I mean (laughs)!
OK (laughs).
It’s like in every other corner, every other junction, there is a church. So it’s that kind of mix-up.
No, there was respect. Because the thing was that the bible – the same bible – that the Christian churches were using is the same bible that we found Haile Selassie in – the King of Kings, you understand me? As rastas. So there wasn’t a conflict. It’s just that there were interpretations that were what you’d call now publicly known due to the fact that when someone is searching they go through when someone is reflecting over a different thing so most of the time I would say the Christian society they would read the bible but the rastas were searching the bible. So they found things that when they put it to the Christian and they would be in awe, or astonished. Some of them would say, “Oh, I’d never have known that, I never known a t’ing like that”, you know. So Trench Town had that. Then you had the educationalists now, they would be people who were part of society, well educated, but then they would realise that, you know, it doesn’t really pay to the part of society so they would become what you’d call “street people”, who would educate people on the street who never get a chance to go to school. And they would come and sit down at corners with you and try to let you have something that would elevate your mind. Out of just being a material street person, but be a wholesome person. So you had educationalists as well. And these are people who were elders, they were people who was part of the whole independence of Jamaica, they were part of that community, or committee. And, you know, they were furthermost journalists who choose not to be a part of the system, and they just become educationalists. Yeah, it’s something that you ought to choice. When you was in Trench Town, you had a choice. You can be who you want to be. It depends on how you see yourself as a person. So these are the things that happen. And that’s what moulded the music to the heights that it is today. Because Bob (Marley) had all these influences around him, Bunny (Wailer) had all these influences around, Joe Higgs had all these influences. Even the brothers that sung ‘Oh Carolina’…?
The Folkes Brothers?
Yeah, Folkes Brothers. Those are people from Trench Town that we grew up with as well. Count Ossie, the Mystic Revelations, all a dem people they used to come to Trench Town daily to see Morty Planno, Sam Brown and other well-known rastas. So, it was like a melting pot, really. But it was the strength of one’s mind that allowed you to elevate out of Trench Town to whatever, you know, it depends on what you want. Say for instance then – I’m gonna give you an example: Say Bob was walking down the road with his guitar, and them boys would just finish rob somebody, or pull off a robbery, and they have some money and they’re having a drink an’ a chat and Bob would be walking down the road with his guitar and they would be saying things like, “Hoy deh! Say, you a musician, play us some song then, mek we hear you!” And if it’s not good enough them would be start criticising it. So in Trench Town if you gonna choose a career or a profession, you got to be very good at it. Because then the sticks would start coming from your own peers, yu understan’? So it was really a competitive place to live. At the same time, it moulded character. It made you the person that you ought to be. If you want to be, yeah? And that’s one of the things I admired and really, really cherished about Trench Town. Until the politics came in. When the politics came in now in the sixties everything now took a turn for violence an’ money, and just material things that would stray the mind, and it did. Beca’ a lot of people went astray. Like how Bob said in the song “Good friends we have lost…”?
Right.
Yes (laughs)! So we lost a lot of friends, you understand me (chuckles)!
Still every ghetto area have it’s periods of increased amount of conflicts and violence for whatever reason. I remember talking to members from the SANE Band several years ago, and they said that Trench Town is not that violent anymore. Would you agree with that, and how come – what is behind all this?
Well, yes. Well, what happen is that when the sixties came in and the guns start to filtrate, the guns… it was really a infestation of guns, that just came into Trench Town. And there was no regulator or anyone, because Bob wasn’t there any more, so you know it’s not much the youths could look up to, Peter (Tosh) wasn’t there. They were around, but most of the time they were touring. So when they stop touring they would come and spend some time in Trench Town but by then the politicians were already… rooted into Trench Town already. Because they were there like every day, making sure that them support who supports them, and all these things. So it was very violent, in the sense that if you come into a certain area and you come in Trench Town an’ no-one knows you, then you could have a problem. It might not be fatal, but then it’s something that can scar you for life as well. So these things happen. Then we grew up, and we realised for ourselves that you know there’s a hollow here so we started trying to find what was the problem. And when we found it, we realise that the politicians were taking the youths for a ride, because we were living in Trench Town as rastas not being part of politics because we were saying that we don’t wanna be part of politics. So they thought that we were what is called “opponing elements”. Or it’s possible that we could’ve been influenced by the other party. So we were under a lot of strain as rastas. You know, they would come and just want rastas to do things that we don’t wanna do. And sometimes it would cause conflict. Because people would come telling you as rastas that you have to vote, and we are saying that the only person we vote for is Rastafari. And the people would say t’ings like, “Well bwoy, yu better try know seh the next time I see yu gwan have… I’d better see you deh pon that side or that side”.
Choose side…
Yeah (laughs)! You gotta choose! You understan’ me… But we already chose ‘cos we chose rasta so it cause all a big conflic’ that people got hurt.
Oh yeah, yes it was… Of course (laughs)! You know! But the but is that we didn’t know how far they would take it because we were just thinking that OK, here we are, you know, we are a independent… mind, and we are just living in a democratic society that allows you to be independent of mind. So when we look now there were like people that we grew up with, that you even go to school with, would come to you an’ say things that was really like “Wow!” “Man, what yu doing? Which side yu deh pon?” And like, “Me a rasta, yu know me a rasta, yu see me a rasta so! Wha’, why yu a aks me dat?” But we get to later find out that these people were being paid to ask these questions, and stir up this kind of conflict. You know, because politics is a dirty game. And that is shown internationally. So, with all a that… Then now we came together as rastas, and seh, “Bwoy, this can’t work!” Because we had visitors coming from different parts of the world and when they come there sometimes people would start, like… you had people who would trying to rob them, people would try… And so we start took a stand and seh, “No, this can’t happen”. So we call some of the guys them and say “Listen, this is wha’ ‘appen, we can’t live like this”. We might be different, but at the same time we can be like a hand, with five different fingers, but we can come together to make a face. So we’re pushing these ideas across, which actually some of them is like went well rooted in good ground, and some went in stony ground. So some didn’t grow… And then we start see a lot of friends, man. A lot of things just start happening. But then now, like some blessing… you know somehow everybody came together one day and seh, “No more a this”. And that’s why Trench Town is the way it is today. You can go there. We even tried to bring a tourist… part of the Tourist Association to Trench Town due to the fact that Bob was there.
Yes, so it look like they have all the tourist you see in the city attraction, which is the Bob Marley residence, and so ninety per cent said yes. So we got that. Yet, the politics is still there trying to stir up all kinda t’ing to get to the youths them. So is just really… I think what is happening is this: I think that someone is trying to control Trench Town. Politically speaking. And it won’t happen because when Bob was alive he said to me, I remember him saying to me one day: “Whatever Ily, with you boys, don’t give it away cheaply”. Which was… he was talking (about) the legacy, that he would leave to us, which we still enjoy today. So I think that there is someone who is trying to say “OK, this is Trench Town and I control Trench Town”, but then Trench Town is not like that. The people of Trench Town is too educated in every way. Because for instance when I was growing up if you lived in Trench Town and say you’re going to get a job, it doesn’t matter how qualified you are, once you get into Trench Town you’re just not gettin’ the job. So you had to be outside of Trench Town. So all those things forced us into little corners. That them say “When your back is against the wall…”, is a dangerous person. Is the same thing if you corner an animal, he is gonna come at you. So, that’s what happened. We were pushed in corners. And all these things just started make some people have deep, deep hatreds an’ deep… you know? It was something else, man. But Trench Town today, it’s not exactly the Utopia that we would like, but at least it’s coming closer to that state. So, we’re gettin’ there but I think some more time…
What must’ve lifted Trench Town from a lot of past trouble is major contributions from volunteers, community workers. From the community citicens themselves, along with some key people to structure all that is needed in this work…
OK, when you say that two things come to mind: One is opportunity. But opportunity in a sense cannot be measured by material wealth, you understand me? Because I think that’s a big mistake that the international community is making, when they put material on the helm of everything. It’s like the more material you have is the bigger person you are or the more man you are, or woman you are. You understand me? And that’s a mistake. ‘Cause we were males and females before material things, you get me? So is not material things that make us male, or female. So, these are the priorities that we need to get across to humanity so we can be better persons. Because material is not all. You know, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who went to school, and I said to him, “You know, you remember the lady…?” Because there was a lady that used to sell sweets and fruits at the school gate, and she was there when I was a kid… I was about seven. And when I was twentytwo, and visited the school again, she was still there selling fruits, sweets, and t’ings like that. So I struck up a conversation with her and I said to her, “Bwoy, imagine, you still deh ya”. And she said to me seh, “You know somet’ing? I a buy me house a’ready yunno, but me haffe serve the pickney dem, y’know? Me like when me a serve the pickney dem”. And that jus’… that just brought joy to me that here is someone who is patriotic, or dedicated. You know wha’ I mean? To know that she already bought her house, she could’ve just relaxed now and say “okay”. But she chose to serve the kids and she served so many generations. So these are the things that open my head to a lot of things knowing that material is not all. It’s a purpose, you know, and here we are. Outside help would be brilliant, for opportunity. Yet what we need is that moral state of mind where one can value eachother. As a person, rather than just as a… well, you can be as a tool, because people use people as tools. Wherein, nothing is wrong with that. But at the end of the day, there must be some joy to it. So we need to know that we recognise each other as persons. And as part of our dream, and what is called “all link in the same chain”. And the chain can only break at its weakest point. So we need to get everybody strong morally that we all have characters, and we all know that we’re brothers. You know, at the end of the day. Bob say it “One love, one heart, lets come together and feel OK”. So if we get outside help, it would be nice. Because of two things: One is that it would allow the kids them to know that “OK, we nah fe go rob”, y’know wha’ I mean? “We nah fe go out deh go do anyt’ing that will be on society dem, to achieve somet’ing. I’ve got opportunity, I’ve got capability”, and things like that. Still on that level because you see, I tell you something, a’right? I was saying to myself that… I think it was about last year (’02), “Bwoy, it would be nice to bring in some money to the area”, an’ t’ings like that. But then now when you look at it what the money is gonna do, without morality, is make us into beasts.
You gotta start deal with the morality issue first before the money thing comes in…
… before we bring in the money, exactly. Because when I’m looking at it, and I’m weighing it all up, and I’ve seen my friend who just want to live fast, and die fast. There’s no between for them. There’s no saying “OK, let me see if I can be me, by being me”. But no, they see themselves as being themselves with that amount like whatever them want, millions or whatever, and that is what is gonna make them. But what everyone is forgetting, is that it is harder for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle… it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter the kingdom. And that simply means when you break it down in layer mans language, it just means that there’s more temptations when you have money. There’s so much temptation that you can do that, you can do that, you understand me? Because you have the money. So if you’re not the person you are before the money, when you get it it’s chaos. It’s chaos, man. It’s chaos… Because I remember nuff a dem Chinese parents lost their children when the cause of the Lotus – you heard about this cause? There was a craze about the Ford Cortina Lotus, it was in the seventies. And all dem Chinese kids were dying. Because of these false cars. They had the money to buy the kids them their cars, but… They had the money, they just bought them to get the kids the best cars. You know “OK, it’s my kid and she is supposed to have the best car”. But the “best”, bwoi… It really took them, y’know wha’ I mean? So it’s all the t’ings dem that opened my eyes – to a lot of things. At the end of the day, you gotta find yourself first. And when you find yourself you will find that you respect others more. As one man said to me years ago, he said, “You know, if all dads should be present of a child’s birth”, or their child’s birth, “they wouldn’t have so much kids”.
Possible (laughs)… Because then, when you see the agony and the pain that the female had to go through, you’d think twice before doing that tour again. You understand me? So (laughs)…
What do the government in question have for support of these different ghetto regions, in terms of programs?
Well, I think the only program they have is to… gettin’ the votes. That’s what I think, y’know (laughs)!
Getting the votes. First and foremost to stay in power – naturally.
Yes, I think their mainstay and aim is to get the votes. And whatever that cost, whether someone has to die or shoot some spy, or intimidation, fear – whatever, have to be the tool and the use. Then they’re gonna go through doing that. Now, the thing is that we tried to bring the Tourist Board in Trench Town, which they agreed. The government agreed – the Minister of Finance agreed, but then now the guns were just still barking. Guns were still barking because there was people who felt that they were left out. Who was like, say “OK, I’m the Don, I am the Don of this area”, right? “Who are you fe bring some things into this area and you don’t know what we need here!”, y’know. So all a these things happened. Trench Town on a whole can stand on its own. In case we didn’t get international help Trench Town can stand on its own, because we’ve got a legacy. We have something that the whole entire universe or, should I say… human race… would like to experience. We’ve got the place where Bob Marley made ‘No Woman No Cry’. We’ve got the place where he practised… you know that sound where Bob practises… that sound he made on ‘(Chase Them) Crazy Baldheads’? That sound at the beginning that…
Yea, like the Indian sound, shouting like some North American Indian?
Yes! That blurt. While he was practising those things, I was standing there. You know, each morning he would come and go into park an’ he would make the sound and I would like… you know, I would be standing there listening to him make these sounds until one day he put it on record.
Did he ever say where he got that sound from?
No. I think that just came naturally. I think that just came naturally because Bob sings like eighteen hours a day. When Peter and Bunny would be gone like to their respective homes Bob would be sitting there until four o’clock in the morning playing his guitar, and tuning the voice. So I think that that thing came… It’s like OK, you know… like if you put water, sugar and lime together, you get a blend. Right? Or anything chemically you put together, you get a blend, yes? Now… or reaction, I should say. Now, I think that is the reaction of practising – that’s where he got that from. Because it took me five years, practising of my own, to get that sound. And then I realise that it came natural after a period of practicising, practicising, it just came natural. I think it’s a spin-off from practising to tune the voice he got that from. It is possible though that he could’ve heard it from some African record. That he might have a record… Bob used to listen to a lot of other artists, a lot of other artists Bob used to listen to.
Anyone in particular you can recall?
Well, for instance Bob loved Curtis Mayfield. I remember one day one of my friends said to Bob, “You know seh yu better than Curtis Mayfield”. And Bob get vex nuh! Because Curtis Mayfield was his idol! And he got mad an’ seh, “Weh yu a talk ‘ bout better than Curtis!?” And the man seh, “Yeah man, yu better than Curtis Mayfield!” (laughs). And, it happened to me and then I realise what Bob went through because Peter Tosh is my idol. And someone said to me one day, “You know that you sing better than Peter Tosh”. And I got mad! I say, “Yu crazy!” And him said, “Yes you do, yunno!” And I said, “Naw, man!” (laughs). I could understand what Bob went through there. But there were people like… Bob used to listen to a lot of Al Green as well. And Johnny Nash, yeah. For lyrical contents though, Bob Dylan and the same John Lennon…
OK, Lennon and the Beatles and all that.
Yeah, these were radical writers. So, I think… you know? Marvin Gaye was another, because he brought these people… I met them all – through Bob.
I heard something like Marvin went down to JA on vacation, to visit Bob and, like, get the Jamaican spirit…
In Trench Town, yeah. I was there. I was there the day when he came. Yeah, I was there when he came.
Perhaps not what you would expect from such a celebrity of Marvin Gaye’s stature, to go down there to this dangerous environment as the Trench Town ghetto, knowing that he was wealthy, not being used to these places and being from “the other part of society”. And could run the risk of being kidnapped or having somebody doing something nasty at any moment. Now, that could happen almost anywhere, sure, but especially in the Jamaican ghetto areas, you gotta have some guts to do a thing like that in his position.
Of course, of course. Because I’m gonna tell you something that no one knows. Whenever you get the opportunity, ask Jimmy Cliff about it. Jimmy Cliff did ‘The Harder They Come’ – the movie. And it came out, and it was a big hit. And he came to Trench Town one day because we’re all friends, he’s friend of Bob and Wailing Souls, Joe Higgs – Joe Higgs wrote some of Jimmy Cliffs songs. So, he came to Trench Town to spend some time with us. Now, some of the boys them from across the other side of the road heard that he was there, smoking chalice an’ t’ing. So, they came over an’ stick up everybody with them guns. Without saying is just a robbery, it’s just that this man which is Jimmy Cliff you’re pointing at, saying this man is a “star”. And we are stars, and we think that “stars star should spar”. So they took Jimmy Cliff away. And took him over by there where they have their own “pub” – in Jamaica it’s called a bar. They took him over there, and they all sat down there drinking beer an’ telling him t’ings and showing him them guns an’ t’ing. And then they brought him back when them finished (laughs)!! So, that could happen to Jimmy Cliff! Y’know wha’ I mean! Coming from America, as Marvin Gaye or Johnny Nash or all a dem, you understan’ me? You can imagine! Yeah. But this is not something that is widely known. You know, it is only people who were there who could tell you this. Bunny Wailer can tell you, the Wailing Souls can tell you, ‘cos Joe Higgs could… Joe Higgs who has now passed, but we were all there. And this ‘appened, I’m sure Jimmy Cliff could tell you, y’know. It was an experience of his life. Yes, I can tell you (laughs)! So what happened now, I had a… this is ’75 – when the Jackson Five came to Jamaica. They had a concert with the Wailers…
Yes, National Stadium. So I met them all. They came to their (The Wailers) house, them time Bob were living up at Hope Road. So they all came to the house. But then the most interesting meeting that I’ve had, was Stevie Wonder. And what really struck me was the things he said. For instance he said when he heard ‘Trench Town Rock’, the song ‘Trench Town Rock’, he said whatever that artist puts out he wants to hear it. So he took an interes’ in Bobs lyrics. And possibly melodies as well, as well as the beats – which is reggae. And then now he heard ‘Natty Dread’. So when he heard ‘Natty Dread’, he said to his manager, “I have to meet the person who sings these songs”. So he made his point of due to come and meet Bob. This wasn’t any promoters ploy or any promotional agency – you understan’ me? – doing these t’ings. This is from Stevie himself saying that he had to meet Bob Marley. And when he met Bob he said to Bob, he said, “You know, you Jamaican artists… you do things we in America wish we could do”. So Bob seh, “Like what?” “Say for instance, you can sing whatever comes in your mind – we can’t!” In America they are censored. You understand me (laughs)? In Jamaica we are free, man. We can just release whatever thoughts that came to our head (laughs)! On tape or on record.
Yes, y’know wha’ I mean! So this thing was very interesting for me, to hear Stevie Wonder saying these things.
But still Stevie did indeed his share of socially aware songs like ‘Living For The City’, ‘You Haven’t Done Nothing’ and all that. Some hard-hitting songs of the time.
Yeah, he had to. He had to. Because he realise how important it was. He had to, he had to, man. Because Bob was a big, big influence now. Which he still is internationally. So all of these things, like for instance… what’s his name? Simply Red… did a Bunny Wailer song…?
Must be ‘Love Fire’.
OK. So these are statements. These are things that people could identify with, but they could not put it to words so, or put melodies to it, but Bob did it. And people want to know that they can be part of that. So they would sing over these songs an’ these is statements which is really, really symbolic. But when I met Johnny Nash now, that was the experience of my life. Because I didn’t know that somebody’s voice could be as clean as a silver string. And Johnny Nash had that (laughs)! You know, I was amazed when he came down to Trench Town on Third Street, and this man sat there and Bob gave him the guitar and the voice was… I’m tellin’ you… Johnny Nash…
Pure.
Puuure, it’s like a silver string, man! I’ve never experienced any other persons voice like that. Jimmy Cliff (is) close, but professionality that Johnny Nash had and the command that he had to read his vocals with, is amazing (chuckles)!
Pity that he more or less has retired.
He’s in Switzerland (wrong: Johnny Nash is still based in his homestate of Texas, USA). I haven’t spoken to him for a long while, yeah… haven’t talked to him for a while. I remember the days from Third Street weh I said to him…
When are we talking, I assume it’s the late sixties?
Yeah, that was like ’69. I remember them days on Third Street, man. Yes man (chuckles), smoking the best herbs an’ t’ings like that.
It sort of fascinates or appeal to me – even if this regards the environment of poverty which can hardly be “fascinating” that we’re speaking of… that these privileged stars from the States, like Marvin and Johnny Nash or whoever, appreciated the Jamaican life more so than the glamour and vanity of the US show business, searching for something more close to the “real” life, something more vital to life itself. You’re suddenly living close to the edge of existence in the Jamaican ghetto. At least getting a glimpse of that, that sort of harsh reality… something they probably had lost contact with at home.
Of course! Reality, of course. Because, as I said these things taught me…
Getting away from decadense for a while there.
Yeah man (laughs)! Facing yourself – that’s what it’s all about! And I was intrigued about these things too. It’s like “Wow, Bob my friend knows these people!” You know, when I saw Michael Jackson and his brothers – the Jackson Five, and then all these… there was some serious experiences in Trench Town. I knew people from America, I knew this white guy… who sold his house, and took all the money and came to live amongst Bob Marley. He came…
You mean Lee Jaffe?
Of course. Lee said to Bob, “I don’t want nothin’ from you, all I want to do is be around you”. And then sometime, he would follow Bob in a cab… where he’s going (laughs)! He got to be around Bob! Oh, Lee was… Lee could tell you so much things (laughs)! Bob used to bring Lee down to Trench Town, and Lee loved to play football. Because, you know Americans don’t know anyt’ing about soccer, innit (chuckles)? So, this was like (laughs)… Lee was in his element! You know wha’ I mean? He’s a nice guy, but Bob was like, to me, this person who could influence an’ bring down these people. It’s like – wow! It made me open my eyes more now looking at the values, or valuing what we have. Because when I see… then there was a Japanese guy as well, have you heard of him?
No, who could that be?
What’s his name now…? He is the person who… he built Bob’s studio, and he services Bob’s studio. He left Japan… this is a martial arts expert. Sold all his belongings again, like Lee, and saying that “I’m not leaving Bob Marley”. And he’s never left. Up to now he is still in Jamaica, and he’s at Tuff Gong. And anyt’ing (that) go wrong with the studio he fixes.
Yeah? Never heard of him, I think?
Yeah! What’s his name again…? He’s tall and slim. This is a martial arts expert, yunno. And this man is leaving all a that, saying he’s not leaving Bob Marley. Lord… the interest (laughs)! Bob had these influences, bwoy. He did it, he did it… He was gifted, he was gifted and I was able to experience that first-hand. Like… I give praises.
Eventually The Wailers got their breakthrough, we know that story. But did you feel at the time that they had the potential to break big? Who could’ve have guessed this among the more happening acts like the Maytals, Melodians or Ken Boothe, or Slim Smith? I think at the time people would put their bet on these names and not the Wailers, they were in their corner, went their own way. Even the major league of artists looked down on them.
Oh, they were! They were the ganja-smoking group, and whenever they go to the studio other artists would be saying things like, “Oh, them a get dem pipe an’ ganja – that’s all dem can do! Dem t’ink dem a go reach anyweh?!” (laughs). There were artists saying these t’ings! When Bob and dem was in Randy’s studio. I was there, y’know wha’ I mean (laughs)! The but is they had a job to do. And they recognise that job from an early age. So, the three a them set out to do the job. Even though it was about seven people in the Wailers, in the early sixties… because you know there was two girls as well.
Of course. Cherry… that is Joe Higgs sister, is Joe Higgs’ sister (they are not related – P). And there was some other fellows like Dream (Constantine Walker), Junior Braithwaite, etcetera, yeah? It was actually seven a dem really. But then Junior had to go to Chicago because his dad become the mayor – this is out of Trench Town again, y’know. His dad became the mayor of Chicago. So the whole family had to migrate. So that’s what made Junior went away. And then Beverly she had the… she became a secretary. So she went away as well, she went to America as well. So it just left Bob and Peter and Bunny, and they did their part, they really did their part… And going to what you said now earlier: I didn’t know, because Bob made me a legend! That, I didn’t know that I was going to be a legend, and he made me a legend. And this is how it happened: I was coming from school one evening, and I’m always with the girls – I’m always with girls around, so I was coming from school taking these girls to the bus stop outside of Trench Town. When they came to Trench Town it was to Trench Town School, and Trench Town School was the first comprehensive school – it was an experimental idea for the Minsister of Education to have a comprehensive school in Jamaica. But Trench Town got that gift. I was priviledged to be part of the first particular class when I went there. So we had like some of the commissioners sons and these captives daughters and all these people they are sending into Trench Town, to get this education that was free. And to a very high standard. So I had these beautiful girls, man. So, I was in my element, innit? So I had all these girls I had to take to the bus stop in the evening, and when they get their buses I had to go back on the road. So this particular day I was coming back up on the road and Bob saw me. And he and Bunny, Peter, Bread from the Wailing Souls, was standing on the wall there. So I was going up, and Bob call me. All the while me notice in Jamaica these are the sayings like “face man”. You “gwan like yu a face man”. Yeah, like you have all the girls, yunno. So Bob seh, “Come ‘ere. All the while me see you with a whole heap a girl and they gwan like yu a face man”, so me laugh. So ‘im seh, “Dem girls me see yu walk with, weh dem live?” So me say, “Uptown, Washington Gardens, Patrick City, dem areas”, suburban chicks. So him say, “Dem have four a dem house?” So, me say, “Yes, dem have four a dem house”. Him seh ‘im have idea, something fe dem fe do. So me seh, “Wha’ ever, tell me?” So he took out all these lickle cards out a his pocket that you could request from the radio stations what you want to hear, what songs. And he gave me them, and he said to me, “Give the girls dem that and tell them they must phone in as well as request the Wailers music”. So I said, “That’s no problem, I’ll do that”. So I went back to school the following day, call the girls dem, leave them the cards, as one of the friends them as boys… and told the girls them to phone in and request Wailers music. Now, that gave me a job. Because I did that to them now, I started listening to the radio more often, to see if they were playing Wailers music. And by listening to the radio, I start making notes. Like say now “it played Tuesday at quarter past seven on this station”, or that program. And then at the end of the week I would take it to Bob and seh, “See the amount a time”. And Bob seh, “Wait! You brainy!” Him seh, “Wha’! Yu a t’inker!” So from there we started… me and him get closer. So, I would make a report to him every week. Now, I didn’t know that this was gonna develop into this big, massive giant somet’ing that it is today. So all I know is when Bob passed ‘way in ’81, all my phones were just ringing like mad! All my friends from school were saying things to me over the telephone line, “How did yu know?” “You know, yu are the firs’ person that mek me listen to the Wailers! How did you know that the man was gonna be this great?!” And I’m saying, “I didn’t know!” (laughs).
Just happened…
(Laughs) It just happened! It’s like an industrial revolution! It just happened, you get me (laughs)! So he made me a legend. Whether wittingly or unwittingly, but I became like targon, tellin’ the t’ing so far, my friends told me…
Like a prophecy of what would happen to them, that this music was the future, the most successful act Jamaica ever had.
Of course. And that made me… bwoy, open my eyes even more. ‘Cos I’m saying “Bwoy, look how simple that was”, ‘cos I just took it as somet’ing to do. I didn’t take it as anything that was gonna make notches, or indelible marks. So that’s where it all triggered from. And then I got closer to Bob now… that one day I found some money for him. He lost some money and I was looking around, and I found it. So when I returned it, oh bwoy… then I smoked that day! I haven’t smoked so much in my life (laughs)! That made me get closer to Bob now… that ordinary they are more than the rest of the kids my age. Because he realised I was honest, plus I was this thinking person that he said I was…
“Brainy”!
“Brainy” (laughs)! You know, and then I had what is called an asset, because I used to do martial arts. So he had that aid. So, Bob saw me in action one day, and he changed my name – to “Karate”! Him seh, “Wha’? Yu a karate, man!” “I didn’t know he is a karate?”… That’s where Peter Tosh start doing karate from. From me, ‘cos he see that I was… ‘im seh, “Weh yu learn dem t’ings deh, yout’?” And then he took it up an’ went… that’s all dem things you see him do on stage. He practised hard. So, Bob Marley called me “Karate”, the Wailing Souls call me “Karate”, Bunny Wailer… everybody call me “Karate”, just through Bob, yunno (chuckles)! So, if you see Rita now and say to her “Karate” she would say “Oh, yes!” So that’s how that happened. But, for me Trench Town… is the place. I’m gonna give you an example: I was living at Third Street, Morty Planno was living at Fifth Street – that’s two streets away. Bob Marley live a Second Street. With his brother, half-brother Bunny Wailer, you know. Bob’s mother had a child for Bunny Wailers father…
Pearl, yeah.
Pearl, alright. So Bob would be living with Bunny Wailer at the time – the same house. Peter Tosh live on Fourth Street, on West Road… beside West Road. You had Lord Tanamo living on Second Street. Delroy Wilson living on Second Street. You had – you ever heard about Higgs & Wilson?
Yea, Joe Higgs and Roy Wilson.
Of course. Well, Roy Wilson was a cousin to Junior Braithwaite.
‘Oh Manny Oh’ and the early Jamaican hits…
Yes, those songs – ‘Oh Manny Oh’, you’re right. So… and they were living on Third Street. And then you had Lloyd Charmers. He would live on Third Street, do you know Lloyd Charmers?
Yeah, and Uniques, with Slim Smith and them. Yeah, and then you had Lloyd Charmers. Then if you look up the road a likkle further you a go find Alton Ellis on Fifth Street. You understan’ me (laughs)? Then, if you go to the bottom of Fifth Street you gonna find Lascelles Perkins. You’ve heard of Lascelles Perkins?
What’s his song called…? ‘If I Had Wings Like A Dove’, right.
Did you know “Batman” (Trevor Wilson) too?
Batman? Yeah man! Batman wrote ‘Johnny (You Are) Too Bad’. That was Delroy Wilson’s brother.
Right, but the Slickers claimed that it was their tune (to be found on the classic ‘The Harder They Come’ soundtrack).
Yeah, yeah, the Slickers claimed it. Yeah, Batman was somebody that we grew up with. I can tell you some experiences, man. I’m gonna write my book, y’know?
(Laughs) You should!
Yeah! I’m gonna write my book. You know, because there’s so much things (laughs)! We had some experiences with Batman that was very, very funny.
But apparently he was a very bad guy, really on the edge, as far as I know.
Oh, very bad. I remember one night he came down the road and all them guys used to gamble on the streets, sit on the street under the street lights gambling. Like, playing cards for money. And he would just come down the road and everybody would get nervous. And he would jus’ say, “Wha’ yu a gamble? A’right, give me a game!” And he took out him gun and put it down deh. And him have no money, but everybody a win ten straight, can get the gun. Y’know wha’ I mean (laughs)? So they all started gambling, right? And somebody won ten in the game. So Batman seh, “OK, see’t deh – tek it”. And he started sweating, the guy started sweating, y’know! So Batman say, “Yeah, but you win it. Tek it!” So the game stood still. So the guy didn’t, and Batman said, “Your own nuh, you win it – tek it?! Take it too!!” So eventually he push the man over and he took up this t’ing. When he took it up, Batman just pull another gun from his back, the backpart of his trousers, and he just say, “You t’ink a jus’ so? You can jus’ get my t’ing so?” And just rob them all of dem money that whoever losing – and whoever win, he just rob them all there! Same place, where all of us grow up together, y’know. He just rob everybody there, and just took up their money and say, “Go home nuh!” And fire one shot in the air “boh!” And everybody run – gaaawd! Y’know wha’ I mean (chuckles)!? So he was a rough guy, man. A rough guy. But, he had a t’ing called culture. He had culture. Because there is nobody that could say… try to disturb us, while he was around. And if he wasn’t around and we keyman (Batman) heard that somebody did somet’ing that we didn’t like or was against us, he would go and look for the person. He had culture.
Right. That reputation.
Yes. He had that. And he know Bob. Anyt’ing him do and it come in the newspaper, Bob a the first one he go look for! And show Bob seh “You see dat? A me do dat! Me do dat!” He was craaazy (laughs)!
Right. It was like he took it for real life what he saw in the movies, like western movies, spaghetti westerns? I can imagine him picking up a lot from there, being glued to the movie theaters.
Oh yes! He lived it. Lived it…
No distance to…?
No. He lived it. If you listen to the song, you will know.
But I think he wasn’t really that bad, even though the tendencies were there, until he had an accident and that got to his head, turned him over, made him worse and even more violent.
Oh, quicksilver… He had quicksilver put in his head.
Yeah?
Yeah. ‘Cos I think something, someone had chopped him in his head, and then them days was quicksilver they used to… weh you call it now…?
To stabilise it…?
Well, I think it was more like just making something that was moveable. ‘Ca you know the brain is mostly water. Yeah, is liquid. So I think they needed something that could move and balance and I think quicksilver was one a dem t’ing. They use it in World War Two, innit? And World War One. Most of the soldiers who got shot in their heads and lived would have quicksilver in them head. So, that was one of the things that they say Batman have quicksilver in his head, and so he goes off sometimes. So him a madman, but yu see him ‘ave the quicksilver inna him head (laughs)!!
(Laughs) It’s easy to laugh about it but he did a lot of bad things to people, that shouldn’t be left out here, and in the end he had to pay the price for all this badness.
Of course he did, I’m tellin’ you. Whenever he… oh yeah, he had to, he had to! It’s always something that is… it is inevitable. You can’t escape it. I learned these things that whatever you do it goes… they say it’s after you but it goes in front of you. Yes, it goes in front of you. Because how I know that is – if you do something bad, say in the record business, when you reach to a company, when you say to them my name is so and so, they would say “Oh no, we don’t want nothing to do with you” (chuckles). “We heard about you”. So, I’d say it goes in front of you (laughs). So he knew it was coming anyway. Because he was a serious person. One of the things that I really, you know I couldn’t believe he was like that… was that somebody had a gun that was nicer than his. So he’s going for it. He wants it!
No. He wants the gun! If it’s nicer… Once when something – if it’s nicer than his, when it’s more pretty or shiny or add somet’ing that he didn’t have, he’s coming for it! And I didn’t know he was like that until one day, you know when yu get older and he was saying, “Remember that gun me had, yu know the way me get it from?” I said, “Gosh, man!” A some story weh the man dem a tell me sometime, a so it go fe true! (laughs). But, I always admired wherein the way him do t’ings an’ a come look for Bob. He always go look for Bob, an’ seh, “A me do that, a me do that t’ing”.
And he was proud of slicin’ up somebody or knock ’em out or almost frighten someone to death, whatever badness he was practicing?
He was proud, he was proud of the things dem. And another thing about him – he was a loner.
No gang behind?
No. Him alone. If it’s twelve people him alone come fe the twelve a dem. That’s how they start to say to him that him mad (laughs)! Because you can’t take out twelve people you alone, if you out there killing, yunno (laughs)!
And for how many years did he go around like that? They say he was killed in 1975, but this was happening since the sixties, more or less, when he ruled the area, didn’t he?
Oh yes. This is going on from the sixties. Yeah man, this is going on. And he was a very good guitar player, y’know. Some of Delroy songs…
And composer too (Trevor Wilson actually did a few recordings for Coxson and Bunny Lee)?
Yes. Composer, yeah. Some of the Delroy songs, is him. Is his ideas.
It doesn’t hang together though, the “disciplined composer and singer”, who sits down and practices and writes and rewrites lines over and over, contra the badman who gets up from such an activity; the rehearsal, the discipline, the dedication… and goes out to rob someone, or whatever rough things he got himself involved with?
Well, it does! Because I tell you the reason I say that. Beca’ it’s a… what? It’s a thin line between…?
… between love and hate.
You understand me. So, I was saying to a friend therefore, yesterday, if you notice that the Romans brought civilization according to what history tells us – western history, that the Romans civilised the western world, yes? But yet there was this Collosseum where the gladiators… they were thirsty for blood. You understand me? They had all this civilisation, all these t’ings that could civilise the rest of the world but then they were still barbaring with blood, rituals and gains. So you can see, some things goes hand in hand. The same debt of povertyness is the same debt of nativeness, you get me? So I saw Batman as one of those kind of people where he had to do one of these things to go to the depth that he did. ‘Cos that song ‘Johnny You Are Too Bad’, it’s a really good song. The melody is just great and the lyrical context is just spot on (sings) “Walking down the road with a pistol in your waist, Johnny you are too baaad…”. And he was exactly like that (laughs)!
Like writing his own biography, stripped down to a song?
Of course. Yes, his own biography, you know. So that took exceptional talent.
But what was the Wilson family like? Considering Batman’s behaviour and attitude towards life, and Delroy was the total opposite of his younger brother… Perhaps there was no one to really guide them?
I can tell you some history you don’t know. Because Delroy Wilson’s dad an’ all them people, Delroy Wilson dad dem was crooks. Delroy Wilsons dad was a crook. He used to thief peoples docks an’ t’ings like that (laughs). You know, Delroy’s dad… I think it was most of the time when Delroy’s dad was in the prison, really.
And you don’t connect these things to Delroy, don’t get the impression that this is his background, considering his style – well smooth and “civilised” (laughs).
Well, t’ing about him now is that Delroy was a person who… he always… you always find him down the gully. Where these gullies are, where the waste-water runs. And that’s where you’d find Delroy running these board-horses. You ever heard of board-horses?
No, don’t think so.
You make these lickle t’ings, shaped out of wood – like a diamond. And smooth with a razor at the back of it. Like a rudder. And we’d put it in the running water and whoever had the lightest and most sturdy board, that we call a horse, and if you end up at the winning post, you’d get the money. Yes. So it was like each person put a pound to put in them horses, when to race. And then now off they go at an equal start an’ then some horses would get double oval, others would go ahead and whoever win, wins. Delroy loved that. He loved race horses, board-horse we called them. Down to gully every day, and he had the money because he would get a few shillings from Mr Dodd at the time. Not what he expected or what he were earned, but just something that, for a boy at his age, he was more than wealthy than what a lot of other mature males got for amount… that they could spend for a week, y’know? So, he had that. And he was like that, he was one a dem fun people. But then again I think that drinking… money is a dangerous commodity. Because Delroy started drinking at an early age an’ you know…
I had heard something about that a couple of years before he passed (’95), someone in the States mentioned that to me, it was when Delroy still lived in the US and could hardly work, being caught up in drinking, and heavily, at the time. It seems he was just totally lost in it, which makes it really sad. He was such a major talent. But a hard drinker nevertheless.
Oh, he had drinking problems more than anything else. Because I remember we was at Channel One studio one day, I couldn’t believe it! Before he went around the mike, because it was his turn to finish the lead vocal for this song, and then Delroy had to drink about six Heineken straight! One after the other. And I was jus’ standing there and he just tracked them one after the other, and then he say “Yeah, me ready now!”, and went around the mike. And I was like “wha’?” “What!? Ooohh…” So, he depended on drink, really.
I had a thought the other day, I was saying – because I was standing there waiting on someone, and then I found out… I took out my rizzla and started building a spliff., so a thought came to me. And I say “You know what it’s all about? It’s when you don’t have anyt’ing to do with your hands”, you know that? And then now that you’ve said this now, it brought back the same thought that… it’s the same thing. You know, when you don’t have anything to do with… when you’ve got money – you drink! You know, it’s not an addiction to say “OK, you have to drink”. But you do drink. You had the money, maybe the occasion or maybe where you are, the only t’ing that could really occupy you at the time, was having a drink in your hand! And that can be addictive. It can be addictive. So, just out of boredom…
No, I wouldn’t look at it that way because the reason for saying that I don’t look at it that way is during that time when we were singing, we were thinking of music. We were not thinking of making hits that is gonna bring us money. We just loved the music. It was something that we wanted to do in music. So I don’t think that it’s that downside of it, really. It’s just something to do at the time, that’s what I’m concluding here. Yeah, I just think it’s something to do because as I said to you earlier I was standing there the other day and waiting on someone and get out me rizzla… (laughs)! So, you know, it’s just something to do.
And to kill time.
Yeah, to kill time. And then it became, you know, what is called “practice and practice becomes perfect”. So it is when practicing you get it perfect. Now that’s what I break it down to. And also sometimes bad habits as well. ‘Cos bad habits weh you pick up from other people…
Or a lack of self-discipline perhaps?
Yes. That’s the right word! That’s the right word, and that’s where now… I’m saying to you now the moral state of mind is more important than the money. Because without that moral stand your self-esteem is at peak. So, yeah… that self discipline have to be there. I like that word.
So Batman and Delroy, were they not that close?
Oh yeah, they were close. Very close. Yeah man, very close.
And yet still so different individuals, as far as characters is concerned?
Yeah, they had different characters, they both live with their mom. On Second Street. Even though she don’t know sometimes where Batman is and what he is doing. He would come home…
Well, it cannot be easy to have someone like that in the family, for the neighborhood and all that, the little family reputation that you have?
Oh no, it wasn’t. You’d hear sometime from some neighbour, “You know seh OK, that will have to be your son a doing that?” And she’d say, “Looord, gaaawd – me nuh know this!” (laughs)! “Me nuh know, a yu tell me now!” (chuckles). Things like that happened. It was a moulding period for me. Because I was like a sponge. I was the one who… like I would sit there and take in every new thing…
Observing.
Yeah man, and I was absorbing everything. I was the sponge. Even the other day Wailing Souls was here, last year. And we were saying – I was telling them something that happened at me house in the sixties. And they said “Bwoy! You remember that?!” I said “Yes!” Because they were there but because they were the one’s doing it, it might not have been a part of their memory. But because I was the one seeing it and hearing it, it stuck out there. So I can remind them of things that they jus’ take for granted. Or, that they took for granted then. But, I was the sponge, man. I was soakin’ up, soak up everything. I can tell them stories now that would make their hairs stand on end. Them would a say, “Bwoy, yu remember dat?!”
That’s why you should write a book!
Yeah, I am, I am… I am thinking of it. Because I’ve got a legacy. I’ve got a legacy of Trench Town, I’ve got a legacy of Rastafari, I’ve got a legacy of the Wailers. So I’ve got three legacies there.
OK. Back to Knowledge now, finally. But, before that I would like to know your previous experience in the music, before you and Michael Smith decided to form the group back in 1974? Was there any involvement in other unrecorded or recorded groups or solo venture before this?
Yes. For instance, the first time I went into a recording studio, was to record for Lee ‘Scratch’ Perry. I was in school then, so was about ’69. And, I had a duet. A friend of mine named Norman Edwards, he’s a teacher now in Jamaica – educated, we were in school together. But he loved the singing, and so did I. So, we decided to form a duet. And, we wrote some songs, a song that said… I remember Norman wrote the song, and I finished it too. Like, it said (sings): “We need more civilisation, we need more organisation, in this world, all the nations, all the nations…”.
Is that you?? I don’t know, that’s a Stingers song, I think?
“… have gone astray” (laughs)! So, yeah! We did that for Lee Perry. And…
They were called The Stingers, or something like that, but I’m not sure…?
I don’t… to be honest with you, I don’t remember the name that we had!
Wait, I’ve got to check the CD, incidentally I have it here on a table… one moment (then I turn around and grab a CD from a bunch of Steve Barrow-linked eighties compilations for Trojan, and excellent they are too I should add!).
You’re joking, are you…?
Let me just have a moment, put it into the computer… You haven’t heard this tune in a long long time, I suppose?
I’ve never heard the song! I’d never… I didn’t even know that it published!
Maybe there was a mix-up… a different group who…
… who “did” it? Yeah, maybe Lee Perry did it. Maybe Lee Perry gave it to somebody else?
It’s possible, because I mean that was common practice in the business in those days?
Oh yeah! That was part of the commonality in Jamaica at the time.
… let me see now? Yes, it’s by The Classics, track titled ‘Civilization’.
“The Classics”? Ah, let me hear… now? If you…
(Some silence, and finally the track starts to play) OK, here it is, can you hear…?
(After a few bars) That’s it! (sings along) “… the nations have gooone astray…”. Yeah! Yeah – that’s it!!
Recognise it?
(Excitedly) That’s the song!!
That’s the song?
That’s the SONG!! Where did you get that from??!
It… that’s ’69 that we did that! ’69! For Lee Perry.
Alright…
I’m gonna write that down, because I need to get that! Because, you know something? (sings along again) “… all the nations have gooone astray…”. Oh, God! Yeah. If Norman did hear this, man! He’d go crazy! Because he didn’t know… you know wha’ happened?
(The track still plays in the background, the beautiful guitar solo shining through.)
That’s the song! That’s the song… (sings along) “… fight victimization, in this world, all the nations, look how all the nations… will be united one daaay”.
It’s a great track. Brilliant stuff, one of the better Perry productions from this period.
Listen to me good! I have never… I didn’t even think! This is honestly speaking – I didn’t think it was published. Because you know what? When we sung that song for Lee Perry in ’69…
Who was it in the line-up of The Classics apart from…
Just me and Norman. The guy name Norman Edwards, just the two of us.
Right, OK. Was that really the name you had? Does it ring a bell now, or was it perhaps a name he made up?
Well… I think Lee Perry just made up that name. Because we were just singing as two – two school students. You know, we were in high school and we were just thinking that we love music both and Norman was one a dem prolific writers. So he just started the song, and I finished it. And we took – well, because Bob was with Lee Perry at the time, and Bob was a close friend of mine, you know I told Bob and he just said “come”. And he took me to Lee Perry. We did the song in Randys studio. And, for pay – Lee Perry just gave us two school uniforms.
(Laughs in amazement) Really?
So, I took it as a hint, that I should go back to school! And leave out music.
“Thanks for your service, now that you’ve done yours, then you can go back to school”, like? That was your … “reward”?
You understan’ me (laughs)! So, I took it as a hint. And I think Norman took it as a hint as well. We just said, on our own, that “OK, now we have to forget music, we’re going back to school”! Because then…
Not enough in terms of encouragement, like if it wasn’t “good” enough, so… “let’s go back and practice some more”? “Let’s try somewhere else, later on”?
Well, that’s what I thought! That’s what I thought, and I think that’s what Norman thought as well. So Norman is now a teacher in Jamaica. And here I am, still singing.
Too bad, what could’ve been. Lots of people love that track, it’s a standout at least on this record. Many, I’m sure, have wondered who that group was.
Yeah, it’s us, man! And you know seh me say I never know seh this song come out. Me say all these… I saw Lee Perry the other day, y’know, and I was gonna ask him but I said “Would he remember?” And here you are playing this… oh, my God! What it’s called? “Lee Perry and Friends…”?
‘Shocks of Mighty 1969 – 74’, on the Trojan label.
‘Shocks of Mighty’? Looord ‘ave mercy, all them… Yeah, I saw them Trojan’s – what it’s called? Catalogue! It was last night I was looking at it. I can’t believe this… True, I can’t believe this! I can’t… you… you are a… what is called a… “anthropologist”, innit! Oooh, my God!! I’m so… (whispers) oh, gosh! I gotta write this and then let me talk back to you…
Well, you certainly sound like you’re in shock?
I AM in shock! So, I am in shock – it’s “shocks of mighty” (laughs)! Oh, mighty shock! Mighty. Oh, my Goood! (almost whispering) Yu joooking…! ‘Shocks of Mighty’?
Yeah.
So you understan’ that, you know what I was saying? Because we did that song for Lee Perry and we never ever, I never ever think of going back to sing again! For anybody, because I was just saying “You know what? I am just gonna go to school”. So I went to school.
How old were you both when that tune was recorded? About seventeen – eighteen?
Oh no, we were younger than that. We were about – let me see now? We was about fourteen. We were like fourteen. ’69 we did it.
But you both sound so mature on this?
Yeah! We were, we were (laughs)! No, man – you have opened my eyes here! You have opened my eyes ‘ere, I’m tellin’ yu! I’m gonna call Norman – I have to call Norman for this! Because, this is a song that I’ve always talked about, but I’ve never heard it. I’ve never, ever… I’m tellin’ you, from we left the studio that day, I’ve never heard it again. I never done a cassette…
And this was cut in Randy’s?
And that was in Randy’s studio.
Who played on the track? The guitar for example? I think it stands out in particular.
Ah! Yeah, it was The Upsetters, they were called… what was it called? The Hippy Boys.
Hippy Boys? But it doesn’t sound like that trademark Barrett vibe somehow?
Oh yeah!
It… yeah! It’s the Barretts, and Reggie was the guitarist, the rhythm guitarist.
And… what’s his name, what’s his name – the lead guitarist? I tell you what’s his name – Rennie?
Uhm, “Rennie”…?
We used to call him Rennie… what’s his name again…?
One is called Glen Adams in that line-up anyway…
… plays keyboards. Keyboards, yeah, Glen Adams. And Rennie was the lead guitarist – is it Rennie?
Could be Ronnie? Ronnie Bop?
Ronnie – that’s it!
Ronnie Bop Williams then?
That’s it! That’s the man, Ronnie Bop. That’s the man – Ronnie. You hear that sound there, the pickin’… “pickie pickie” sound there, that’s Ronnie Bop, yeah.
Playing that beautiful lead?
Yeah. That’s a nex’ peak. Oh boy, you’ve done somet’ing here today! You don’t know (laughs)!
Talking ’bout revelation?
(laughs) This is revelation!
I can understand to the fullness that you’re in “shock” here, it’s thirty years, you never thought it was out!
I never ever thought it was out!
It was probably released in England at the time, I assume Perry never issued that song in Jamaica… not even on a B-side.
(Low voice) What on earth is this now…?!
Possibly a 45 in the UK some years later, like in the early seventies, gotta check this later on, I think.
Yes! In the early seventies, yes! So we… so I went back to school, Dennis Brown was singin’ then – what’s his name…? That likkle young one there? Name me some young one’s…? Dennis Brown, Delroy, and… the other one? He used to live in England here?
Errol Dunkley?
Errol! That’s it! You’re on it, you are on it. That’s it. So we were all younger, we were the younger ones, yeah? But they choose to still stick out to the music. So I jus’ said that I’m gonna go back to school, so I just took school for it. And then now Bob and I get closer, and Bob didn’t know how much I love music. He didn’t expect me to be singin’ because I wasn’t showing no kind of… you know, no kind of iniciation or any interest in trying to play a instrument when instruments were there, available an’ things like that. So I was just like a errand boy. I would go and buy whatever, woulda cook if it would come to the crisis, we would get the football out, the cars an’ out wit’ the boots, get the boots and whatever – you understan’ me? But I was dying for the music, loving the music, living with the music. But, no one knew, only it was inside of me. And then now, ’71, ’72, I went to Mikey an’ I said… I say, “Mikey…”. No, Mikey had a friend called Joseph Watt. Now, Joseph Watt is the brother of Jean Watt, have you heard of Jean Watt?
Sounds familiar, but…
She wrote some of Bunny Wailer’s songs.
Ah, yea. She is credited of writing songs like ‘Hallelujah Time’, but I doubt it still – it’s probably Bunny hiding behind that name, and was Bunny’s sometime woman in that period… is that correct?
A’right. No, she is his queen!
OK.
She still is. Yeah, but she is a Trench Town girl as well. Now, her brother was Joseph Watt, and Joseph Watt was a person who like music as well, and used to work at Federal Records at the time. So he decided to form a group with Mikey. And then they called me and I was to join the group as well. So, we became a trio. And our first competition was in a place out in Two Miles where we had a original entry, and we came second. The person who beat us was a little boy who sang a Dennis Brown song – and clipped us, man! But our song was good because it came second, as a original. But then Joseph Watt now he was one a dem “pretty boys”, so him couldn’t come a the rehearsal so often as him should and the group… we didn’t do any recordings. And then now, I left school and I had a job. And I said to myself “You know what? This job is stoppin’ you from doing certain things”. “It’s stoppin’ you from sparring with Bob, it’s stoppin’ you from smokin’, it’s stoppin’ me from relaxing” – when I’ve got to get up at six in the morning and…
I was a salesman – Jamaica Biscuit Company. Yeah, and so I just stop working. I jus’ didn’t go back to no work. And I started to locks my hair as well. Because, I found myself as well. I said “You know what? I’m not combing my hair no more, I’m just gonna be me”. You know, to live a certain way. I became a vegetarian immediately. And still is. Now, with all a that… boy! All now I’m still ecstatic, y’know (laughs)! I’m still ecstatic! And so… I sat down one day and all my savings that I had was being spent up, because I was smoking and cooking and was having a initiation of being a rasta, locks an’ t’ings like that. So, one day I sat down and I said, “Father, you know somet’ing? I’m gonna need money so whatever you see that I should do to make some money tell it to me now?”, and this is when talking to myself and me father. And a voice just came into my head and say “You forget seh yu used to sing?” This is exactly what the voice said, y’know. “You forget that you used to sing?” And me seh “Wait! A no lie, a no lie. I no sing yet beca’ I see the reggae music take off ca’ Bob a get big, and reggae music a get big”. So me just walk go up the road, and when me a go up the road I saw Michael. So me seh, “Mikey, mek we form a group now an’…”. And you know what Mikey’s words were? “You know how long me a sit dung pon the wall and play my guitar and wait fe a man come seh dat?” Me say, “Wha’?” So I mentioned another guy that could sing now – Earl McFarlane. And Earl now, as I said to Mikey, “You know seh the dread up the road?” – ‘cos Earl was a rasta as well, “The dread up the road can sing, yunno”. And Mikey say, “Who? The dread that walk barefoot?” And me say, “Yeah!” And as we were saying something he would be coming around the corner – singing, y’know. So me just call him and seh, “We just call your name, yunno. You’re gonna live long”. ‘Cause he was one a dem feisty persons, y’know? So him a say, “Wha’ yu a call me name ’bout?” So we say, “Well, we’re thinking of making a group so we thought of you, ca’ you can sing and… weh yu seh?” He say, “Alright”. So we say rehearsal starts tonight at seven. And that’s where Knowledge started.
This is around ’73?
Yeah, ’73, ’74 – that’s where it all started. And we started making… we started writing song after song after song, that was just bursting with lyrics. And the songs were just coming. And Mikey…
And this time you felt like you’re not gonna enter a studio before you had a catalogue of songs that were up to date and…
Alright… no, no! This is the magic part of it. Because we were in Trench Town, and Trench Town is known to be what is called one a dem “known” political areas. We were a bit scared to go out there to other producers. Like, to go to… any producer whatsoever. Because when you leave out of Trench Town you’d be puttin’ yourself to jeopardy. So we decided to just sit down there an’ write songs. And then now we had this friend who was a lawyer who came from Trench Town, went to America to practice law, and got his Masters Degree/Doctorate In Law over there. And he came back to Trench Town and as a matter of fact he was the person who wrote ‘Muriel’. You know ‘Muriel’?
Alton Ellis?
Yep! It was written by a lawyer, y’know – George Rookwood.
There’s creative talents in all sorts of areas in Jamaica.
You see what I’m talking about! So George Rookwood wrote ‘Muriel’ for Alton, because Alton and George lived on the same street. So Rookwood wrote that song, so when he came back from America now because he was on holiday and he decide to come to Trench Town and had the Doctorate of Law an’ t’ing, to see what Trench Town is like. He came and saw us as a group, and decide bwoy – he just gave us some money and seh go to the studio man an’ build… “You singin’ good man and now gwan to the studio”. So we took… the first production that we ever did was money from George Rookwood. And there’s a song called ‘Camouflage’ – have you seen it on the ‘Straight Outta Trench Town’…?
Yes, that’s the last, or next to the last track I think?
‘Camouflage’. Well, that was our first production as a group. And we put Family Man Barrett together with Fish Clarke as the drummer, Chinna Smith, Errol Brown as the engineer, which was Treasure Isle/Duke Reids nephew. And, we went to Duke Reid’s studio and recorded that song. And George took it away to America and put this synthesizer or keyboard on it. Some white American who loved reggae decided to play on it, and he did a good job. And we put it out as a 45.
Around when? ’75, or closer to the Tappa period some years later?
This is ’75, yeah (chuckles). Yeah, so we put it out as a 45 and then now…
Which label was it?
The Trench Town label, it’s called “Trench Town”. Our own label. And from there now we started rehearsing more. Some friends said to us, “Bwai, Michael Samuels can sing yunno ca’ him sing for we every night no one na put ‘im in no group”. So we say, “So go give him come”. So that’s how he became our member. And then now Delroy Fowlin was a close friend of mine and he bought a guitar ca’ he loved music as well. He used to dance on stage as well so he had a little artistry in him. And he said, “Bwoy, I no have no group so tek me now”. So we say come, and we had a five man band! A five man group (laughs)! So rehearsals had to be very, very, very, very practiceable. In other words we haffe do that like when wake up in a the morning ’til you go to bed at night. Ca’ how to get a five man sound is not easy – in harmony. Especially without certain experiences, like we haven’t got professional people who can read and write music an’ things like that. So we had to rehearse more and more often – we used to rehearse like twenty hours a day. And then, here comes Tappa Zukie. This is all happening in Trench Town, y’know. We don’t have to go anywhere. Here comes Tappa Zukie wanting to make a group from Trench Town – for the European public – to know that he is doing somet’ing for Trench Town. And we were available.
Part 2 coming soon
Fools And Their Money
The post Interview with Knowledge’s Anthony Doyley (Part 1) appeared first on Reggae Vibes.
